Judd Apatow is known for making long movies, from comedies like Funny People and This Is 40 that balloon past two hours, to documentaries on his comedy heroes like the two-part, four-hour films about Garry Shandling and George Carlin. So it was somewhat of a shock when he dropped a 20-minute short last month about the lifelong friendship between Don Rickles and Bob Newhart. “I’ve changed,” he jokes. “All my movies are going to be shorts now, no matter the genre.”
In this bonus episode of The Last Laugh podcast—his third appearance on the show—Apatow breaks down what made those two stylistically opposed icons a perfect off-stage pair. He also weighs in on how the art of roasting has evolved over the years, shares memories about his friend and mentor Norman Lear, and explains why he thinks Lena Dunham’s Girls is finally being fully appreciated more than a decade after its premiere.
Speaking from his dressing room shortly before he would go on stage to open for his lifelong friend Adam Sandler in San Antonio this past week, Apatow says it wasn’t long after Rickles died six years ago at the age of 90 that Newhart called him up and asked if he would make a film about their friendship and respective comedy legacies. “‘I don’t want people to forget about Don,’” he remembers Newhart saying.
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“I mean, they’re some of the big reasons I went into comedy,” Apatow says, explaining that for years as a kid he would watch The Bob Newhart Show every day after school. And while comedians are in no danger of forgetting about Rickles, he adds, “It’s nice to remind the world how riotously funny he was.”
Below is an edited excerpt from our conversation. You can listen to the whole thing by following The Last Laugh on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, or wherever you get your podcasts, and be the first to hear new episodes when they are released every Wednesday.
One of the big themes of the film is how they were such close friends, but their comedic styles were so different in a lot of ways. Do you see it that way or do you find that they had more in common than people thought?
Well, on stage Bob Newhart was somebody who was very meticulous. His story is so interesting because he was an accountant and he wrote all these sketches. He had a friend who worked at a radio station, and they let him record the sketches, and he got a record deal out of it. And then he had to perform them in front of an audience, but he’d never performed in front of an audience before! When he recorded the album, I think he’d only perform in front of an audience for a couple of months total. And it became one of the highest records of all time. He beat Sinatra for Best Album [at the Grammys]. But it was all very written, where Don, as described by Bob, seems like someone who just has attention issues. He has the things he does every night, but in terms of riffing and making fun of the crowd and insulting people, it’s just pure in-the-moment madness! And that’s the opposite of Bob. But in real life, I think Bob has a vicious sense of humor. He is funny and cutting and he will insult you, and he loves to brag about how he was more successful than Don in television. And that’s just the way he has always had his relationship be with Don.
Yeah, we do see them roast each other a little bit in the film. But Newhart’s son speculates that they were able to be as close as they were because they weren’t competing with each other.
Yeah, it didn’t feel that way at all, even though they gave each other a hard time. Because Bob would always say, “Don was in a small room downstairs doing the lounge and I was in the big room.” So I think they insulted each other about it. But Bob worked really hard on all these sitcoms forever. And Don was a gigantic Vegas act, who never could get a sitcom going. And so they both had their worlds.
Do you remember the first time you met Don Rickles? Did you have that experience of getting made fun of by him?
Well, the first time I interacted with him I was 11 years old. I went to see him at the Westbury Music Fair and there were two empty seats in the front row, so me and my brother snuck down and sat there. And then he just ripped on us throughout the show for having no parents. He kept talking about the kids with no parents.
Were you happy about that, to be targeted by him in that way?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that was great. And I went to see him a lot throughout my life. Newhart, I had only seen do stand-up live once. I did a benefit for 826LA, which provides free tutoring and literacy programs for kids. So we would do these weird variety shows. And one year the lineup was Pee-Wee Herman, Bob Newhart, Colin Quinn, Ray Romano, Jon Brion, and RZA from the Wu-Tang Clan. And Bob went up, he’s nervous before, as if he hasn’t been doing it for 65 years, and then just tears the house down as if he wrote the whole act yesterday. I mean, it all really held up, even the old routine. So I was glad I got to see him at the top of his game performing.
I do wonder whether Rickles’ style of roast comedy has fallen out of fashion at all. It’s something I was just talking about with Whitney Cummings, because she has been trying to bring the roasts back on this new platform after it seems like Comedy Central decided they don’t want to do them anymore. Do you think that people have less of an appetite for roasting than they used to?
It’s always hard to know, because the people that don’t like it, how big a majority of people are they? And so if there’s a certain minority that’s like, “I’m offended by all of this,” does it go away because of that? Do all the people who love that type of humor find a way to still enjoy it? Obviously we all love Jeff Ross’ roasts and his work, and he kept that alive for a long time. And I think out there in the world, in the clubs, they still are doing a lot of roast battles, and it’s still a vibrant thing. But, you know, it’s taste. For me, as a kid, nothing was funnier. I couldn’t have enjoyed it more, and it always felt like [Rickles] is getting everybody, and as long as he gets everybody, it’s OK. It’s not like he’s attacking this kind of person, but not that kind of person. But some people feel like it’s all hurtful, don’t do it. So it’s hard to know what the world would make of him if he arrived on the scene right now.
Yeah, Rickles got out before he could be canceled.
But every time I’ve been to roasts and watched roast battles, the crowd couldn’t love it more.
Well, it’s a license to say whatever you want, and a safe space—to use the term differently—to go as hard as you want to go. And everyone goes in accepting that those are the rules of the game.
Yes, so as an audience member, personally, I enjoy it. I couldn’t do it, because I’m too thin-skinned. I don’t want to be near a place where people might roast me. I got asked to host one of those roasts on Comedy Central, and I said no because I don’t want to know what the joke is on me.
Was that the Roast of James Franco?
Yes, and I did not want to know what cruel things would be said about me because I’m sure I’m an easy mark.
I’m wondering if it’s been inspiring to make this movie and see people like Bob Newhart—but also Mel Brooks, and until this past week, Norman Lear—able to work and stay funny into their eighties, nineties, and in Norman Lear’s case, up to 101.
Well, Norman was a good friend. I used to visit him a lot, and earlier this year, in January, I went over to his house and had an afternoon hangout with him, Dick Van Dyke, and Mel Brooks. And it was remarkable how sharp they all were, how funny, how delighted they were in being funny and making each other laugh. They had stories about their time in World War II, and they talked about that for a long time and all their different experiences. I think the key is that they just love it, that part of them never disappears. And they are also people who are just up on everything, very current and vital people. And Norman was to the very end. So none of them checked out and went to an island and decided not to do more stuff. Norman always said, “I feel like I’m the age of the person I’m with.” And I thought that was a really beautiful idea.
He didn’t see himself as 101, I’m sure.
No, not at all. And he was still producing tons of projects. The last five or six years, he got so many things made. All of those restagings of his television shows that he did with Jimmy Kimmel were all so funny. So if your job is to make the world happy, why would you want to stop?
Listen to the episode now and follow The Last Laugh on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, or wherever you get your podcasts to be the first to hear new episodes when they are released every Wednesday.
